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what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

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  #1  
Old 07-22-2005, 05:52 PM
FairgangstaZ's Avatar
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Default what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

The trouble with today's cars is that they still put out a lot of pollution, and use up fossil fuels. One day, we have to run out of fossil fuels. People have been talking about running cars on water for ages. Unfortunately, most of the time, these people are crackpots. But there is a certain amount of truth in what they say.

Now I know that trying to predict the future is hard, but I reckon that an electric car, powered by a fuel cell running on hydrogen, could be a goer! If you remember back to your chemistry classes at school, water is H2O. In other words, a molecule of water is made up of two atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. If you use energy, and pass electricity through water, you can split water into hydrogen and oxygen. And you can run this reaction backwards, and combine hydrogen and oxygen to give you water and energy. (In fact, the word, "hydrogen", means "maker of water" in the original Greek language.)

There are two main ways that you can burn hydrogen with oxygen, to give you water, and energy.

The first way is that you can burn hydrogen in a modified car engine. Two companies, BMW and Mazda, are working on this. The engine works fine, but with about 20% less power - which is pretty reasonable, considering that we have been working on the petrol engine for a century or so. When you burn hydrogen in an engine, you get mostly water coming out of the tailpipe. You also get small amounts of oxides of nitrogen (from the nitrogen in the air), and even smaller amount of hydrocarbons (from traces of the lubricants in the combustion chambers of the engine). Even so, a hydrogen-powered car is much less polluting than a petrol-powered car. Of course, you use a normal gearbox and diff.

The second way to use hydrogen to run your car is in an electric car. Mercedes-Benz have been using a strange device called a fuel cell, which has been around since 1839.

A fuel cell is very similar to a battery. Both a fuel cell and a battery turn a chemical reaction into electrical energy. But a battery is sealed, and when the "goodness" in the chemicals is used up, the battery is flat. A fuel cell is like a battery, but with one important different difference - you can pump in the chemicals indefinitely. Fuel cells take in hydrogen and oxygen, and give off pure drinking water, and electricity. You use the electricity to run electric motors.

Fuel cells are up to 80% efficient. They will get two or three times more energy out of hydrogen, than will a modified car engine. This is because the internal combustion engine has a stage where you generate a lot of heat - and this is where a lot of energy is wasted, and where the efficiency goes right down.

The real problem with today's electric cars is that our battery technology is pathetic. The battery pack in today's best electric car, the EV-1, gives great acceleration, but a range of less than 100 kilometres. But if you use a fuel cell instead of a battery, you suddenly get an electric car with very low pollution, and good range and performance.

There are two main ways to store hydrogen in your car-of-the-future. First, you can squash it and turn it into a liquid - but the container has to be very strong and heavy, and you have to insulate it to keep it at a temperature of about 260oC below zero.

The second way is to shove the gas into a metal, such as magnesium, and it will squash into the spaces between the magnesium atoms. It sounds unbelievable, but you can actually store more hydrogen inside a metal, than you can as a liquid. Nelly Rodriguez and her fellow scientists at Northeastern University in Boston claim that they can do even better. They used incredibly thin sheets of graphite only one third of a billionth of a metre apart, and they reckon that they can store 30 litres of hydrogen on a single gram of graphite, which works out to an amazing 8,000 kilometres per tank, with your hydrogen-powered car.

Either way, you can fill your tank in under three minutes - which is not much different from filling up with petrol.

One problem with hydrogen is the bad public relations angle - most of us have heard of hydrogen bombs, and seen the dramatic footage of the hydrogen-filled Hindenberg airship exploding in 1937. But hydrogen can be stored safely - in a series of tests on a tank of liquid hydrogen, BMW played flames at 900oC on it for 70 minutes, punched holes into it, and even squashed it until it broke. Sometimes the hydrogen leaked out, and sometimes it caught alight, but it never exploded.

At the moment, in the USA alone, there's about $200 billion invested in shifting and storing petrol, and it would take an enormous effort to start dealing with hydrogen.

It's a darn shame, but we probably won't get a hydrogen energy economy in the near future - but we might further down the line, as we begin to run out of fossil fuels.
 
  #2  
Old 07-25-2005, 07:58 PM
Patrick's Avatar
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

i think that it would take gov't mandates and requirements to make people change over, mostly due to the cost of change.
 
  #3  
Old 07-26-2005, 10:51 PM
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: California
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

Wouldn't it cost the same for a full tank? Great for emissions, but if the savings aren't great, I'll stick with good old petrol.
 
  #4  
Old 08-08-2005, 08:39 PM
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

i couldnt care any less about emissions...what i care about is the absurd fuel prices.
 
  #5  
Old 08-11-2005, 11:43 AM
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18
Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

I know that we are going to have to find a way to phase out oil use over the next 50 years. i don't think anyone is going to be forced to buy a new are, but shortly i think that all new car options will be (clean) options. I think we are just going to have to come to tirms with the idea that we are going to see the death of the high horsepower machines.
 
  #6  
Old 08-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Patrick's Avatar
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

hmm..im afraid that i dont agree. considering the fact that right now even your 4 cylinder performance cars are putting out near 300hp, and the V8s, such as the new GTO, Vette, Stang, and the Dodge Hemi cars are all putting out 350+, i think that those companies surely are preparing for any type of alternative fuel, and in doing so, are also working on performance cars which use that alternative fuel
 
  #7  
Old 08-18-2005, 08:40 PM
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

Hydrogen fuel...........sounds expensive.
What about methanol? USHRA Monster trucks run pretty good on methanol. Engines running cooler sounds good but alcohol does attract moisture and the fuel system problems need to be dealt with. Clean buring and renewable.....plus farmers making money is too cool.
 
  #8  
Old 08-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Patrick's Avatar
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

i used to be on a pit crew for a circle track car, and they ran an alcohol engine...i do see more and mroe alcohol injected cars at the track...
 
  #9  
Old 09-18-2005, 09:06 PM
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

I think its a good idea but for now the cost to have them on the road will cost an arm and a leg
 
  #10  
Old 09-21-2005, 07:16 PM
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 48
Default RE: what do you think about hydrogen cars ?

Interesting reading. You know, I personally know of several cars that convert tap water and now run on 100% hydrogen. Sure, they don't have quite as much power but who cares when gas is $3 bucks a gallon. And pollution? Yeah, there's none. But before anybody gets all reved up about running your car on tap water (yes it does work) and saving the world, I've been researching this for quite some time and have come to some unhappy conclusions. It's all wrapped around money. First, the oil companies won't allow 100% hydrogen cars to evolve because it would bankrupt them. ie: you don't need gas, they go broke. (Also, hydrogen has many other uses, heating your home, power generation, etc. Oil companies have great stock in these as well.) 2nd, the economy. If the oil companies go TU, there goes the economy. Millions of workers laid off. Nobody to pay taxes, you do the math.

Sad, I'm a great fan of hydrogen and think if handled right it could indeed be mankinds power answer for the next thousand years or so. Maybe longer. However, the money grubbers aren't going to allow (yes I said allow.) us to have control over our lives because quite frankly, they like having the power. (and the money) And sadly, I don't believe we can take that power back from them. That... would take a revolution. Hmmm, didn't we do that once?

Just my opinion,

Brad
 


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